Peter Green/Gary Moore LP Neck Pickup

[no66y©]

Hi guy.
Blooming cold eh?

Anyways, was discussing the Peter Green/ Gary Moore LP (henceforth known as
the Greenie!) with a guy and I started pondering the fabled neck pickup[1].

I've googled around and thought I had it sussed:

Take the pickup out, flip the magnet so the N pole sits where the S pole
was.
Now, re fit the pickup but fit it the opposite way so the adjustable pole
pieces face away from the neck.


Now I though that was it - it would give an out of phase signal (assuming
vol and tone was the same on each pickup) when the pickup selector was in
the middle (due to the coil windings being the opposite way - Flemmings
right hand rule IIRC?).

However I then found another site (similar to wiki) that said there was more
to it - but it didn't give more details!

Anyone know more as I'm now confused?

There is loads on the web and I thought I'd sifted out the required info but
now I'm not sure.....


[1] I may have found a set of burst buckers which should hopefully be in my
possession in a few weeks and I was contemplating doing the Greenie mod.

Many thanks.

[SteveShark]

Post by no66y©
Hi guy.
Blooming cold eh?
Anyways, was discussing the Peter Green/ Gary Moore LP (henceforth known as
the Greenie!) with a guy and I started pondering the fabled neck pickup[1].
Take the pickup out, flip the magnet so the N pole sits where the S pole
was.
Now, re fit the pickup but fit it the opposite way so the adjustable pole
pieces face away from the neck.
Now I though that was it - it would give an out of phase signal (assuming
vol and tone was the same on each pickup) when the pickup selector was in
the middle (due to the coil windings being the opposite way - Flemmings
right hand rule IIRC?).

This makes no audible difference whatsoever!

I've tried it.

Post by no66y©
However I then found another site (similar to wiki) that said there was more
to it - but it didn't give more details!
Anyone know more as I'm now confused?

It involves some internal surgery to the pick up.

http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123593

http://www.metalflakes.com/bowlofflakes/showthread.php?t=15492

Steve.

[christofire]

Post by SteveShark

Post by no66y©
Hi guy.
Blooming cold eh?
Anyways, was discussing the Peter Green/ Gary Moore LP (henceforth known as
the Greenie!) with a guy and I started pondering the fabled neck pickup[1].
Take the pickup out, flip the magnet so the N pole sits where the S pole
was.
Now, re fit the pickup but fit it the opposite way so the adjustable pole
pieces face away from the neck.
Now I though that was it - it would give an out of phase signal (assuming
vol and tone was the same on each pickup) when the pickup selector was in
the middle (due to the coil windings being the opposite way - Flemmings
right hand rule IIRC?).

This makes no audible difference whatsoever!
I've tried it.

Post by no66y©
However I then found another site (similar to wiki) that said there was more
to it - but it didn't give more details!
Anyone know more as I'm now confused?

It involves some internal surgery to the pick up.
http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123593
http://www.metalflakes.com/bowlofflakes/showthread.php?t=15492
Steve.

In a normal humbucker, reversing the magnet so North is placed where South
was and vice versa should have the same effect as reversing the connections
to the whole pickup although, of course, no-one would want to connect a
screened single-core cable with the (external) screen connected to the
signal line that heads for the amplifier input - the solution is to use a
two- (or-more) core screened cable. If this made no audible difference then
something else must have been changed to restore the original phase
relationship between the two pickups (e.g. flipping the magnet in the bridge
pickup as well!). As for turning the whole pickup around through 180
degrees, I suspect the effect is little more than cosmetic ... unless the
screws have been adjusted to project a long way out from the pickup cover.

I have a push-push DPDT phase switch in a Les Paul which gives access to
that tone (which Burns used to call 'Hound dog' on some of their old
guitars!) but, apart from when one of the pickups is set to full volume,
it's fiddly finding the right combinations because equal voltage at low
frequencies results in cancellation of low frequencies, and a thin tone. I
also have the option in a Strat - reversed middle pickup wiring, selected
(amongst other options) by a rotary switch that replaces the second tone
control.

One of these days, I'm going to do it properly and re-arrange the wiring in
each case so when two pickups are connected in parallel, one in reversed
phase, one of the signals passes through a capacitor of suitable value to
impede low frequencies and avoid the bass cancellation. Then a wider range
of useful tones should be available 'on tap' as it were.

Chris

[no66y©]

"SteveShark" wrote in message

Post by SteveShark
This makes no audible difference whatsoever!

Opps, yep, putting the pickup in the wrong way does nothing sonically or
electrically.

The magnet flip I wrote about does the out of phase job.

Post by SteveShark
It involves some internal surgery to the pick up.

I described the magnet flip but hadn't considered the shielding of the
wires.
I note the addition of the "authentic" wiring loop on the geetarz link.

Anyone flipped thier magnets and got good results?
worth doing or not worth the effort really?

[christofire]

Post by no66y©
"SteveShark" wrote in message

Post by SteveShark
This makes no audible difference whatsoever!

Opps, yep, putting the pickup in the wrong way does nothing sonically or
electrically.
The magnet flip I wrote about does the out of phase job.

Post by SteveShark
It involves some internal surgery to the pick up.

I described the magnet flip but hadn't considered the shielding of the
wires.
I note the addition of the "authentic" wiring loop on the geetarz link.
Anyone flipped thier magnets and got good results?
worth doing or not worth the effort really?

As I mentioned, I opted for new wiring (actually all four connections) to
facilitate selective phase reversal between pickups, parallel as well as
series connection of coils within the pickup, and 'coil-tap', at the pull of
a switch or two. I've always found the 'honky' tone intriguing because it's
possibly a little closer to a noise a human might make (!) but, without
steps to preserve the bass component as I outlined, it requires such a major
change in the control of one's amp that its _selective_ use (with the other
two tones in a LP) in live playing is almost ruled out. Good fun doing
'Need yer love sobad' and the theme to Bergerac nevertheless.

Chris

[Steve at fivetrees]

Post by christofire
As I mentioned, I opted for new wiring (actually all four connections) to
facilitate selective phase reversal between pickups, parallel as well as
series connection of coils within the pickup, and 'coil-tap', at the pull
of a switch or two. I've always found the 'honky' tone intriguing because
it's possibly a little closer to a noise a human might make (!) but,
without steps to preserve the bass component as I outlined, it requires
such a major change in the control of one's amp that its _selective_ use
(with the other two tones in a LP) in live playing is almost ruled out.

One of my main guitars has 2 Burns pickups; one stacked (two coils), the
other single. (This is not a tale of two humbuckers.) After a lot of
experimentation (many years ago, back when I was a wee guitar nerk) I opted
to put the stacked p/u in bridge position, with a switch/pot arrangement
that allowed me to mix either/both pickup(s), choose either/both winding(s)
of the stacked p/u, and to select whether one of the two stacked windings
was in or out of phase. (One pot per pickup, no tone control, one pickup
selector switch, one winding selector switch, one winding in-/out-of-phase
switch.)

No, really. It made sense at the time. Still does, sometimes.

Anyways, as you might perhaps expect, some combinations are awesome, some
tonally interesting but weedy, and some unusable (one pickup alone, two
coils out of phase with each other is not quite as quiet as I might have
expected, but still quite quiet ;)).

And there are a few combinations where one has to back off one or other
pickup, to give the other some strength, but with a bit missing, to make it
work. Kinda fiddly.

So, basically, nothing like Peter Green's guitar at all. Thanks for reading.

Post by christofire
Good fun doing 'Need yer love sobad' and the theme to Bergerac
nevertheless.

Theme to Bergerac? Wha?

Steve
--
http://www.fivetrees.com

[JNugent]

Post by Steve at fivetrees

Post by christofire
As I mentioned, I opted for new wiring (actually all four connections) to
facilitate selective phase reversal between pickups, parallel as well as
series connection of coils within the pickup, and 'coil-tap', at the pull
of a switch or two. I've always found the 'honky' tone intriguing because
it's possibly a little closer to a noise a human might make (!) but,
without steps to preserve the bass component as I outlined, it requires
such a major change in the control of one's amp that its _selective_ use
(with the other two tones in a LP) in live playing is almost ruled out.

One of my main guitars has 2 Burns pickups; one stacked (two coils), the
other single. (This is not a tale of two humbuckers.) After a lot of
experimentation (many years ago, back when I was a wee guitar nerk) I opted
to put the stacked p/u in bridge position, with a switch/pot arrangement
that allowed me to mix either/both pickup(s), choose either/both winding(s)
of the stacked p/u, and to select whether one of the two stacked windings
was in or out of phase. (One pot per pickup, no tone control, one pickup
selector switch, one winding selector switch, one winding in-/out-of-phase
switch.)
No, really. It made sense at the time. Still does, sometimes.
Anyways, as you might perhaps expect, some combinations are awesome, some
tonally interesting but weedy, and some unusable (one pickup alone, two
coils out of phase with each other is not quite as quiet as I might have
expected, but still quite quiet ;)).
And there are a few combinations where one has to back off one or other
pickup, to give the other some strength, but with a bit missing, to make it
work. Kinda fiddly.
So, basically, nothing like Peter Green's guitar at all. Thanks for reading.

Post by christofire
Good fun doing 'Need yer love sobad' and the theme to Bergerac
nevertheless.

Theme to Bergerac? Wha?

Oh yes... What a great guitar sound on George Fenton's "Bergerac Theme".

Ray Russell never played better, except when he did "Footprints".

[no66y©]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Thinking about it a bit more (and reading some more info) I will probably
just fit the pickups as they are (assuming the deal doesn't bomb out)

The way my luck is just lately I'd probably end up killing the buckers
straight off! besides, its quite possible that I'd like the tone of the
buckers as they are - they have to be an improvement on the stock epi ones
after all!

Then maybe at a later date I can get some dirt cheap (or free!) humbuckers
so I can practice butchering them without worrying too much about doing
something terminal.

As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even though it
was explained to me once :-(

Anyways, I will sit patiently and await the burst buckers.

Aside: apparently, Bare Knuckle now make a Greenie pickup set though I don't
recall seeing it on their website.


Cheers for the responses, its much appreciated.

[Woody]

Post by no66y©
Aside: apparently, Bare Knuckle now make a Greenie pickup set though I don't
recall seeing it on their website.

<http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/ZH-pgblues.html>

[no66y©]

"Woody" wrote in message

Post by Woody
<http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/ZH-pgblues.html>

Well spotted. And in case anyone wondered:
Blues humbucker - Calibrated Covered Set £190.00

[SteveShark]

Post by no66y©
As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even though it
was explained to me once :-(

All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.

HB > SC

Steve.

[no66y©]

"SteveShark" wrote in message

Post by SteveShark
All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC

Ah ha!
<sound of a penny dropping. >

Thanks :-)

[christofire]

Post by no66y©
"SteveShark" wrote in message

Post by SteveShark
All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC

Ah ha!
<sound of a penny dropping. >
Thanks :-)
--
No66y©

A possibly interesting way to provide a selective coil tap without an
additional switch is using a tone control pot with its wiper connected to
earth. The normal capacitor is connected between one end of the track and
the humbucker output, and the other end of the track is connected to the
junction of the two pickup coils connected in series. The tone pot then
covers the range from humbucker-with-treble removed at one end, through
humbucker-with_no_treble-removed at the mid-travel, to single coil (the
other coil short-circuited) at the other end of its travel. The shorted
coil is not found to impair tone in practice. A 1 Mohm pot might be
desirable for this, or a smaller-valued capacitor.

Chris

[Dave Van]

Post by SteveShark

Post by no66y©
As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even though it
was explained to me once :-(

All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC
Steve.

That's actually a coil split. It's when you bypass one coil of a
humbucker to just use one of the coils thereby getting more of a single
coil tone out of it.

A coil tap is different. A coil tap bypasses part of the windings of a
single coil, reducing the output. A single coil can be tapped. A
humbucker can be split or tapped or both.

Cheers

DV

[christofire]

Post by Dave Van

Post by SteveShark

Post by no66y©
As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even
though it was explained to me once :-(

All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC
Steve.

That's actually a coil split. It's when you bypass one coil of a
humbucker to just use one of the coils thereby getting more of a single
coil tone out of it.
A coil tap is different. A coil tap bypasses part of the windings of a
single coil, reducing the output. A single coil can be tapped. A
humbucker can be split or tapped or both.
Cheers
DV

In the present context, humbuckers, when the easiest and most-obvious
tapping point is the junction of the two coils, don't they amount to exactly
the same thing?

Cheers to you too!

Chris

[JNugent]

Post by christofire

Post by Dave Van

Post by SteveShark

Post by no66y©
As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even
though it was explained to me once :-(

All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC
Steve.

That's actually a coil split. It's when you bypass one coil of a
humbucker to just use one of the coils thereby getting more of a single
coil tone out of it.
A coil tap is different. A coil tap bypasses part of the windings of a
single coil, reducing the output. A single coil can be tapped. A
humbucker can be split or tapped or both.
Cheers
DV

In the present context, humbuckers, when the easiest and most-obvious
tapping point is the junction of the two coils, don't they amount to exactly
the same thing?
Cheers to you too!
Chris

"Tapping" also refers to the system used on some guitars, for letting the
second coil be "dialled in" via a pot, allowing the response to be varied
infintely between full h/b and one coil.

[FatBoySlimFast]

On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:04:59 +0000, JNugent

Post by JNugent
"Tapping" also refers to the system used on some guitars, for letting the
second coil be "dialled in" via a pot, allowing the response to be varied
infintely between full h/b and one coil.

My Vintage LP-alike has that. It's very handy but to be honest the
"in-between" settings flip quite quickly between the 2 extreme sounds
so you don't really have the whole travel of the knob with a continuum
of sounds. Having said that, having both types sounds in one guitar is
still ace.

Cheers,
Steve W

[George Weston]

Post by Dave Van

Post by SteveShark

Post by no66y©
As to coil tapping - I'm still not 100% sure what that does - even
though it was explained to me once :-(

All it does is make either or both of the coils available
individually.
HB > SC
Steve.

That's actually a coil split. It's when you bypass one coil of a
humbucker to just use one of the coils thereby getting more of a single
coil tone out of it.
A coil tap is different. A coil tap bypasses part of the windings of a
single coil, reducing the output. A single coil can be tapped. A
humbucker can be split or tapped or both.

Tapping, splitting, whatever, my Gordon Smith Graduate has it, via push-pull
volume pots and it makes for a very versatile guitar.
GS call it coil-tapping on their website
http://www.gordonsmithguitars.com/products/category.php?id=5
By pulling up one or both pot-knobs and selecting appropriate pickup(s), the
sound available changes from a clean, cutting, almost-telecaster tone,
through various others, to a full humbucker tone, as required.

George

[Bluesplayer]

Post by no66y©
Hi guy.
Blooming cold eh?
Anyways, was discussing the Peter Green/ Gary Moore LP (henceforth known as
the Greenie!) with a guy and I started pondering the fabled neck pickup[1].
Take the pickup out, flip the magnet so the N pole sits where the S pole
was.
Now, re fit the pickup but fit it the opposite way so the adjustable pole
pieces face away from the neck.
Now I though that was it - it would give an out of phase signal (assuming
vol and tone was the same on each pickup) when the pickup selector was in
the middle (due to the coil windings being the opposite way - Flemmings
right hand rule IIRC?).
However I then found another site (similar to wiki) that said there was more
to it - but it didn't give more details!
Anyone know more as I'm now confused?
There is loads on the web and I thought I'd sifted out the required info but
now I'm not sure.....
[1] I may have found a set of burst buckers which should hopefully be in my
possession in a few weeks and I was contemplating doing the Greenie mod.
Many thanks.
--
No66y©
Those who find they're touched by madness
                   Sit down next to me.
              Virtual Preserve are here!www.soundclick.com/bands/virtualpreserve
no66ys den:http://no66y.designxp.co.uk/
Reply to address is a spam trap.
Use no66y [at] breathe [dot] com

I once had the good fortune or has it turned out misfortune to use a
Les Paul with Peter Greene inspired rewired pick-ups . I was offered
use of this guitar at a gig by the support band lead player . He was
heavy into Greeny and as i was playing a Jimmy Cairns custom explorer
left-hander , right handed, i jumped at the oppertunity . But on the
first number i got a big shock . The guitar had no power . It seemed
the life of the guitar had been sucked out . I took the guitar off
after the first song . It was only in the interval that the other guy
told me of the modifications . Dont get me wrong it sounded good in a
low output low noise situation , but any Green Manaleshi tones ,
forget it .

Folks should be aware Greeny wired pick-ups are a shock to the system
and can alter the Les Paul tone significantly , not for the better in
my book .

[christofire]

Post by no66y©
Hi guy.
Blooming cold eh?
Anyways, was discussing the Peter Green/ Gary Moore LP (henceforth known as
the Greenie!) with a guy and I started pondering the fabled neck pickup[1].

- snip -

I once had the good fortune or has it turned out misfortune to use a
Les Paul with Peter Greene inspired rewired pick-ups . I was offered
use of this guitar at a gig by the support band lead player . He was
heavy into Greeny and as i was playing a Jimmy Cairns custom explorer
left-hander , right handed, i jumped at the oppertunity . But on the
first number i got a big shock . The guitar had no power . It seemed
the life of the guitar had been sucked out . I took the guitar off
after the first song . It was only in the interval that the other guy
told me of the modifications . Dont get me wrong it sounded good in a
low output low noise situation , but any Green Manaleshi tones ,
forget it .

Folks should be aware Greeny wired pick-ups are a shock to the system
and can alter the Les Paul tone significantly , not for the better in
my book .


... but surely this was only the case when both pickups were selected and at
similar volumes, so plenty of other options for standard tones were still at
your disposal?

Post by no66y©
And there are a few combinations where one has to back off one or other
pickup, to give the other some strength, but with a bit missing, to make it
work. Kinda fiddly.
So, basically, nothing like Peter Green's guitar at all.

... so is it generally believed that Peter Green's guitar provided the honky
sound without fiddly adjustments of volume controls, and with the normal
bass part of the sound left intact? Apocryphal surely??

As for George Fenton's theme to Bergerac, do check it out - it's an
out-of-phase classic! (sounds like a Strat)

Chris

[SteveShark]

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:44:12 -0000, "christofire"

Post by christofire
As for George Fenton's theme to Bergerac, do check it out - it's an
out-of-phase classic! (sounds like a Strat)

Played by Ray Russell IIRC.

Steve.

[christofire]

Post by SteveShark
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:44:12 -0000, "christofire"

Post by christofire
As for George Fenton's theme to Bergerac, do check it out - it's an
out-of-phase classic! (sounds like a Strat)

Played by Ray Russell IIRC.
Steve.

... and JNugent sayeth ...

Oh yes... What a great guitar sound on George Fenton's "Bergerac Theme".

Ray Russell never played better, except when he did "Footprints".


Apparently he composed it as well
http://www.rayrussell.co.uk/index.asp?PageID=250&skin=1. Fabulous
tune/arrangement/playing/tone.

Chris

[JNugent]

Post by christofire

Post by SteveShark
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:44:12 -0000, "christofire"

Post by christofire
As for George Fenton's theme to Bergerac, do check it out - it's an
out-of-phase classic! (sounds like a Strat)

Played by Ray Russell IIRC.
Steve.

... and JNugent sayeth ...
Oh yes... What a great guitar sound on George Fenton's "Bergerac Theme".
Ray Russell never played better, except when he did "Footprints".
Apparently he composed it as well
http://www.rayrussell.co.uk/index.asp?PageID=250&skin=1. Fabulous
tune/arrangement/playing/tone.

I think Ray had an incidental music credit on "Bergerac". The theme tune is
definitely one of George Fenton's. I have the original version on CD and it
lists GF as the composer.

<http://www.mfiles.co.uk/composers/George-Fenton.htm>

[christofire]

Post by JNugent

Post by christofire

Post by SteveShark
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:44:12 -0000, "christofire"

Post by christofire
As for George Fenton's theme to Bergerac, do check it out - it's an
out-of-phase classic! (sounds like a Strat)

Played by Ray Russell IIRC.
Steve.

... and JNugent sayeth ...
Oh yes... What a great guitar sound on George Fenton's "Bergerac Theme".
Ray Russell never played better, except when he did "Footprints".
Apparently he composed it as well
http://www.rayrussell.co.uk/index.asp?PageID=250&skin=1. Fabulous
tune/arrangement/playing/tone.

I think Ray had an incidental music credit on "Bergerac". The theme tune
is definitely one of George Fenton's. I have the original version on CD
and it lists GF as the composer.
<http://www.mfiles.co.uk/composers/George-Fenton.htm>

Indeed, as it does in the closing credits of Bergerac.

[icarusi]

"Bluesplayer" <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:f7ba8fb8-b274-4836-90c1-***@h60g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Folks should be aware Greeny wired pick-ups are a shock to the system
and can alter the Les Paul tone significantly , not for the better in
my book .

I tried one of the Vintage PG relic style LPs which did have 'the sound',
but for general playing I prefered their 'ordinary' LP.

icarusi
--

remove the 00 to reply

[PaulS]

Post by icarusi
I tried one of the Vintage PG relic style LPs which did have 'the sound',
but for general playing I prefered their 'ordinary' LP.

Me too - I bought one (the 'ordinary' one), excellent guitar, no idea
how they do it for the money. Better than some Gibsons I've played.

--
Paul